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Friday, June 22, 2012

My Resignation Letter

 
My resignation letter from Mormonism is below. Since I put a lot of thought and effort into writing the Declaration of Independence from Mormonism when I first decided to resign, I decided to basically turn that into my resignation letter. It explains the main problems and concerns I have with the Church and why I can no longer believe, trust, or support The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



 To the Membership Office of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

This letter is my formal resignation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You may be interested to know that my husband, John, and I have taken this journey together. We discuss all kinds of things together. We both feel much more satisfied and contented in our lives now than we did as believers. Our children have not been raised LDS and they are growing up to be healthy, moral, and intelligent young people.

Although the reasons for my formal resignation are many, I would like to make known three of the main factors contributing to my disaffection with the Church. I believe that the LDS Church is not what it claims to be, is not trustworthy, and is the cause of significant individual psychological harm and damaged family relationships. These factors are described in more detail as follows:

1. I can no longer believe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Many of the basic teachings of Mormonism are impossible for me to accept as true.
  • The “Book of Abraham” papyrus was written in Egyptian, a language now readable by Egyptologists. Proper translation reveals that the papyrus clearly does not say what Joseph Smith claimed it did. It appears that the “Book of Abraham” is a fraud.
  • The Book of Mormon is inherently and inexcusably racist. The whole foundation of the story is that dark skin is a curse from God. I do not believe that this is the case. I reject the religion which was founded upon The Book of Mormon’s racist teachings.
  • The Book of Mormon has another clear and fundamental problem that makes it impossible for me to continue to believe it: Native Americans are not of Jewish descent.
  • The Church is generally anti-scientific. The Church has taught that the earth is only 6,000 old, that evolution is false, and that there was a global flood in which God killed thousands of infants and toddlers. I put my trust in science when it comes to these matters.
2. I can no longer trust The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I feel that the Church has not always been forthright in regard to some important information.
  • The Church has been teaching its members for years that Joseph Smith used a Urim and Thummim to translate the “gold plates.” Numerous Church films, paintings, and lessons relate this version of the process. However, historical records relate that Joseph most often “translated” with his “seer stone” (the same rock he had previously used in money-digging efforts). To translate, Joseph would put the rock into a hat and then put his face into a hat while he dictated to scribes. The “gold plates” were generally not even in the room during this “translation” process.
  • Joseph Smith had at least 30 plural wives, but only his first wife, Emma, is mentioned in Church films, paintings, Sunday school manuals, and seminary and institute manuals. At least 6 of Joseph’s plural wives were already and simultaneously married to other men. He was also sealed to several of his other wives before he was sealed to Emma. The Church has apparently attempted to hide these potentially disturbing details.
  • Brigham Young had 55 wives, but the Church’s Sunday school manual about Brigham Young mentions only two of them (one of whom died before his Mormon conversion)..
  • Brigham Young openly taught from 1852-1877 that Adam (of the Garden of Eden) is our Heavenly Father who was a resurrected and exalted man from a previous world and Eve was one of his wives. Church leaders have denied that this doctrine ever existed.
  • The Church has always taught that righteous people can become Gods (and Goddesses) complete with their own kingdoms (called Exaltation). As an example, Ch. 47 in Gospel Principles states, “These are some of the blessings given to exalted people...They will become gods.” In recent years, while continuing to teach this concept to believers, outsiders and investigators are told things like former President Hinkley’s, “I don’t know that we teach it, I don’t know that we emphasize it.” This type of response seems to show Church leadership to be duplicitous and untrustworthy.
  • Church members are required to pay the Church 10% of their incomes in order to be able to attend the LDS temples. The temples are where Mormon marriages and other rituals believed to be vital to salvation take place. Despite such high donation requirements, the Church does not disclose its financial statements and expenditures. Members pay thousands of dollars to the Church each year and yet are not permitted to see what is being done with that money.
3. I can no longer support The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I believe that some of the actions and teachings of the Church are harmful.
  • The LDS Church teaches that homosexuality is a sinful choice which must never be acted upon. The Church has spent a lot of time, resources and effort to make and keep it illegal for homosexuals to marry who they love. The Church’s harsh treatment of homosexuals has been the cause of heart-wrenching self-loathing, mental anguish, and even suicides.
  • The Church teaches that any sexual expression or experience outside of marriage is evil. Unfortunately, many people have been damaged by these teachings to the point of inflicting self-injury and sometimes committing suicide, often over an activity as harmless as masturbation.
  • The Church encourages and facilitates the routine ostracization of ex-mormons and non-members. Nonmembers are not permitted to attend the weddings of their family and friends that are held in Mormon temples. Sadly, church members cannot simply choose to marry outside the temple so their non-member loved ones can attend. If they do this, the Church requires that their marriage sealings must wait until a year after the “secular” wedding. Of course, young people are reminded that something horrible (death) could happen to one of them within that year, and then their marriage would be permanently over rather than eternal. Ex-mormons are generally viewed with a combination of suspicion, pity, and contempt by their LDS neighbors, friends, and family members.
  • The Church is a misogynistic institution that limits the opportunities of women. The Church teaches women that their place is in the home and that they are only suited to being leaders over women and children. Women are never appointed as leaders over men in the Church. Women were not allowed to pray in sacrament meetings until 1978 and still are not allowed to pray in General Conference sessions.
  • Although the Church now allows black men to hold the priesthood, they continue to teach that dark skin is a curse from God (it is, after all, the basis for the main story in the Book of Mormon). This doctrine is potentially emotionally harmful to people with dark skin, and is therefore untenable.
I do not want to be counted as a Latter-day Saint in any reported membership statistics. I request that you remove my name from all LDS Church records. I understand that this action will result in the termination of my baptism, temple ordinances, and sealings done in the LDS temples. I know what I am asking and it is what I desire. I am an educated, well-informed adult and have not believed at all in The Church for about 8 years. I am absolutely certain that I no longer wish to be considered a member.

As soon as possible, please send a letter confirming that I am longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Thank you,
Zilpha Larsen

Note to Reader: If you would like to learn more about John and me and our thoughts about Mormonism, check out mormonexpression.com (a podcast with between 15,000-20,000 listeners). There are many people’s ideas, research, and opinions shared on Mormon Expression (including a few true believing Mormons). Mormon Expression discusses Mormon culture, doctrine, and history in a funny and entertaining way. Also check out Mormon Expression Voices (mormonexpression.com/voices) for the personal stories of people’s struggles with Mormonism. But if you’d like to know where our new focus is now (outside of Mormonism), go to our new podcast, reasonabilitypodcast.org.

84 comments:

  1. Very nicely done. I am seriously considering sharing this with my TBM husband as it so clearly and articulately puts forth the very issues with which I have wrestled. You come across as reasonable and intelligent and I would be happy to have you represent me to him and others. Thanks for publishing this, Zilpha.

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  2. I'd really like to use some of your phrasing when I do resign. I hope you don't mind Zilpha. You expressed much of what I want to say.

    Thanks again Zilpha for everything you do.

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    1. I agree! What's the copyright on this? Any licensing fee? :)

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  3. Well done on the letter...now if only they cared about any of it!

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  4. I love your letter; it's much like the one I tendered to the church upon my exit. If you're up for a little humor, check out this exit letter:

    http://truthbykristen.blogspot.com/2010/03/my-exit-letter.html

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  5. Well said! While I am not a mormon myself, I do support you in your resignation and commend you for your strength. Good luck, and I sincerely wish you all the best!

    p.s.
    Your name is awesome! Does it come from any mythology or cultural folklore? It sounds very unique and I'm curious to know the background of it.

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  6. Arley, I was named after my great-grandma. Apparently, it had a short run of semi-popularity around the turn of the century in some parts of America. But it was most likely a spin on Zilpah found in the Old Testament.

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    1. Your name reminds me of my grandma Zelpha, who was born in 1916. Thanks for sharing your letter.

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  7. Sorry you've had such a negative experience in the church. I sense a lot of pain in your letter.

    I, too, have gone through a major of crisis of faith in my life. It was one of the most heart-wrenching experiences I've ever been through. However I chose to remain committed to the church and am grateful I did so.

    I don't want to invalidate your feelings, because they are real and need to be affirmed. However, in my opinion many of the issues you mention are the controversial things that are far removed from what I consider the "core" of Mormonism. In my view, how many of Brigham Young's wives the church manual mentions is not nearly as important as the heavy emphasis on moral living you get from the church. It provides an excellent moral compass, which frankly is something I need. I need to be reminded often to be my best self. It is critical to my well-being. This type of moral training and the constant emphasis "to be good" can be very difficult to find outside of a faith community.

    Also key for me is the opportunity to serve and be served. I love the support we get from our Mormon community. It has blessed my life in good times and bad. I love home teaching and visiting teaching, which, done in the right spirit, are at the core of the Gospel; the whole aim of it is to take care of each other. These frequent opportunities to serve and be served can also be hard to find outside of a religious community.

    Again, I don't say these things to invalidate your feelings, but only to suggest that by leaving the church you may be giving up some very valuable and important things.

    God's love to you. We will miss you. I hope you'll come back some day.

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    1. Matt, you might be interested to know that "moral living" lessons, the opportunity to serve and be served, and the support, are hardly unique to Mormonism. Why stay in a false church, when there are better options available?

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  8. Hi Zilpha,

    I'm sorry you feel you need to leave the Church over what I believe are often false misconceptions you have about the BofA, JS, the BofM and so on. As we know, JS translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or characters. You have ignored that fact and created a problem with the BofA out of a literal belief that he could in fact read Egyptian Hieroglyphics or that Egyptian papyri would contain the writings of Abraham. The Egyptians would have no interest in doing so. What JS revealed was the ORIGINAL writings of Abraham as shown to him by the Lord. He knew nothing of what the Egyptian papyri contained since he could not read them (and made a number of human misstatements along those lines).

    Many of your other issues have similar problems and there is a reason for that. You NEVER spoke with God directly and got a witness from God that this is what you should do. Feelings are insufficient here. We are literally talking about people seeing God and angels and experiencing miracles. If you haven't done any of those things, you are not properly grounded. You don't believe JS because he says so or TSM says so or your Bishop or SP says so - you believe him because God has told you so.

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    1. Tobin, buddy...... There's just one major problem with your statement above: JS claimed that the papyri in his possession were by ABRAHAM's OWN FRICKIN' HAND! I'm afraid there's no escaping this one. Even the excuses offered by even the most wise of apologists are very weak.

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    2. Yes, there is. JS was mistaken.

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    3. Wow, Tobin! JS was mistaken? Careful, or you'll be excommunicated for such herisy. And just out of curiosity, how do you know that Zilpha never spoke with God directly?

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    4. Most Mormons join because they have a feeling. That is a terrible way to determine the truth of anything. You could have a feeling because of indigestion.

      Now, if God tells you to be a Mormon, then be one. Who cares what anyone says against it. If God tells you to do something else, then do that. What is important is speaking with God and doing what is right. It really boils down to, do you believe the scriptures are TRUE (and reflect reality) or not? The scriptures claim people often interacted with God. If those accounts are true, then you should be able to do exactly the same thing.

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    5. Tobin,

      What you're advocating here seems to be that people just listen to the voices in their heads. Lots of people claim to have interacted with god (in Christian and other scriptures). Why should we believe their claims? How do we reliably discern 'real' interaction with 'god'? When two people 'interact' with 'god' and come to mutually-exclusive conclusions, how do we reconcile that in a conclusive way?

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    6. Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

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    7. Tobin,

      You're being purposefully vague and dodging the question. That's not how honest discussion or truth works.

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    8. I disagree. The scriptures plainly answer you. I suspect that Mormonism isn't the problem here. You don't really believe in God and what the scriptures say. Otherwise, you wouldn't chafe at seeking and speaking with God. A man of God would welcome speaking with God or as the scriptures state clearly, "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

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  9. Tobin,

    You sound like the kind of religious person who would have crashed an airplane into a building if you have been born an extremist Muslim instead of a Mormon. People like you scare the hell out of me.

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    1. Tyler,

      And I feel sorry for people like you. You don't know the love of God or how to express that love in service and kindness towards your fellow man, or you wouldn't make such irresponsible assertions.

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    2. Tobin,
      Don't HATE, APPRECIATE!! Appreciate the fact that Tyler and Zilpha have the courage to stand up for their beliefs and do something!! Unlike you who just have to hate and chastise people for their opinions just like all other mormons do!!

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    3. Really likboy69? You tell somebody note the hate by attacking them? Sounds like you're acting the way you accuse others of acting...hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

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    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    5. YEAH REALLY ferdinand!! I'm sorry are you and your P.A.L. tobin gonna beat me up????? I'm soooooooo SCARED!!!!

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    6. ferdinand, maybe if you learned how to properly speak ENGLISH then you would know how to write a proper response. Also you would then know if I was attacking someone. If you think that was attacking someone then you must be DUMBER than I thought!!!! I have the right to my opinion and so does he. Se OOPHA!!

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  10. "The Book of Mormon has another clear and fundamental problem that makes it impossible for me to continue to believe it: Native Americans are not of Jewish descent."
    There are 90 documented Native American language families in NOrth America, and over 1,000 languages. Of these many languages, it is a well documented and proven fact that the Uto-Aztecan language family has close to 1,000 known cognates with HEBREW. It is reasonable and logical to recognize that there are dozens and dozens of different groups of people that came to the Americas.It is therefor impossible for you to prove that at least some Native Americans do not have Israelite blood, and it is interesting that you said "Jewish decent" when most of them people mentioned in the Book of Mormon were mostleuy NOT of Jewish decent, with the exception of Mulek, and his people.

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    1. Matthew Jenkins, there's so many other problems with the Book of Mormon, there's no need to dwell on language. Like the population issues, anachronisms, blatant rip-offs from the KJV Bible, etc. Take your pick...

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    2. hi zepha
      as one of the LDS member, first i am happy that you were able to fully expressed and exercised your AGENCY making you as real as independent agent.. see, LDS leaders are not forcing us to do and to believe what they teach as what our Heavenly Father wants. despite what you have done, i m still hoping your very best life to the fullest and may find the real happiness you are looking for. being a member of LDS church is a choice and a matter of choice.. all we have to do is to pray. i believe God answers our prayers weather a member or non-member of LDS church. what testimony i am holding into this church is my assurance that God answered my inquiry about the BoM, and continue to pray about it.. many times i felt LDS leaders failed me, but despite those things i remain to the church, because chosing God's way is all but a matter of choice. still i hope what's best for you. as one member of LDS church, i apologize for any inconvenience you have had in this church. Zepha, i know God loves you.

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  11. Tobin, I feel sorry for you that you're so misled.

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  12. Tobin,
    So did you speak with GOD directly and get a witness from HIM that what YOU say is TRUE??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!! So QUIT HATING playa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    1. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. [Moroni 10:4]

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    2. Tobin,

      This was a sticking point to me for a long time, until I had spoke with enough Muslims, Hindus, Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics etc. who had had the same kind of experiences. What's more likely, that they're all deceived, or that having epiphanies and 'spiritual' experiences are really just another facet of the wonder of being Human?

      Think about what the promise is asking you to do:

      1) Believe in God (faith in Christ)
      2) Believe that he answers prayers
      3) Have NO doubt
      4) Ask
      5) Receive an "answer"

      They're asking you to assume the conclusion, and there's *no* valid negative result for this test. If you pray and nothing happens, then believers will just tell you that you did it wrong. This is not a valid test, it's a hoodwink. They make you keep trying until you "get it right".

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    3. Proxer,

      I think you aren't understanding what I'm saying (or what Moroni is saying) or you simply don't really believe it. Mormonism isn't a proposition you join because you "feel" it is correct. You join it because you "know" it is correct. The basis for that is a real witness and relationship with God. Feelings are insufficient here and is a world apart from real evidence - you really see and experience God, you really experience miracles. If you haven't done any of these things, you are as Christ taught with your house built upon the sand. The rock of Jesus's parable is knowing God and being built upon that. Then when the waves and storms of doubt (and persecution) come, you can reflect on those experiences with God and withstand them.

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    4. Tobin,

      I'm not understanding what you're saying because you're not saying anything that is comprehensible. What is your criteria for 'real witness'?

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    5. Have you ever seen and experienced the Sun? That is a real witness.

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    6. I can see the sun. I can feel the heat of the radiation coming off of the sun. I can do it right now.

      How do I see and experience god in a verifiable and repeatable way?

      Please be honest here. If you don't have a verifiable or repeatable way that you can clearly spell out, just say so.

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    7. Proxer, you asked what a true witness was and I answered you. Suppose after you saw the sun, you lived in a deep dark cave for the rest of your life. Does that change the fact the Sun exists? The same can be said of God and right now, you live in a dark cave.

      That will not always be the case however. One day, you will constantly be in the presence of and see God. For now, we get but glimpses and have experiences. Based on those, we stand firm against doubt and persecution.

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    8. Tobin, you did not answer me, and your claim that you did so is dishonest.

      Truth is discovered by evidence and reasoning, like the Rutherford Experiment, used to discover the Proton: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/rutherford/

      I have asked several times in several ways that you explain how your god can be demonstrated, and you have dodged the question each time. Where is the TobinDrake experiment? What specific, measurable, repeatable results should we expect?

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    9. I have answered you Proxer several times. Until you have a witness of God (something I have explained), are willing to folow him and do as he asks, we have nothing more to discuss about Mormonism. Again, I wish you well.

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    10. Tobin,

      You have not answered me and you do not wish me well, or you would answer my honest inquiry into what you believe. I've asked you the same straightforward questions several times and you have declined to answer each time. If you disagree, I will ask it again and you can repeat your answer:

      1) What test do we use to confirm the existence of god?
      2) What measurable, repeatable result should we expect?
      3) What test do we use to disprove the existence of god?
      4) What measurable, repeatable result should we expect?

      This level of evidence is the standard for all beliefs that I hold. It is the standard for any rational belief. If you cannot provide this evidence, then your belief is irrational, and your assertion is correct, you don't have anything to discuss.

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  13. Tobin,

    Zilpha's point is not JUST that there are issues with the BoM, the BoA, etc. The church has repeatedly changed its position on these issues in ways that are not compatible with the standards of 'honesty' or even 'apostacy' that the church espouses.

    A quick example: Brigham Young taught that God had revealed to him the Adam God doctrine. Later prophets insist that the Adam God doctrine was never taught as doctrine by Brigham Young. Somebody is lying, and the source materials show very clearly that Brigham Young taught AG as doctrine.

    The problem that MANY people have with the church is not that, say, the Book of Abraham papyrii were found and translated and discovered to be something else entirely. The problem is that the church has worked to hide that information from its members. I was taught that the papyrii were lost in the Chicago fire, period. The church leaders know that these falshoods are being taught and repeated in Sunday schools everywhere, but they don't send out any letters to bishops telling them to curb these falshoods.

    In fact, there's no safe place within the church to address these discrepancies. If you bring all of these things up in Sunday school, you will be called in by your Bishop, and if you persist in asking these honest, valid questions about doctrines and church history, you will be disciplined. This is not an organization that values truth.

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    1. Proxer,

      Of course the Church has changed its position. It is a man-made and flawed organization. As I said, Zilpha's points are based on flawed misconceptions she (and others) hold about the LDS Church. The LDS Church is merely an assocation of members and leads you to God (and the Church of God or Kingdom of God). The Church of God (or Kingdom of God) is an entirely different animal. As Luke states that Jesus taught, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

      Now, the fact that people identify that prophets of the LDS Church were flawed, human, fallible, and so forth is not impressive. Of course they are. That isn't why we believe prophets. We believe them BECAUSE God tells us what they say is true. That is how one determines the truth. You don't belive them because they says so, you believe them because God says so.

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    2. Tobin,

      You haven't addressed my assertion at all, that this organization is flawed and dishonest and therefore not worthy of membership.

      In fact, you're being dishonest in your representation of the church. We're not talking about what _you_ interpret the church to be, we're talking about how the Church represents itself to its members and the world. The church doctrine is that it has the sole authority to speak for God on the earth through the prophet.

      The church does *not* hold the position that we can discard any 'revelation' that we have not 'confirmed'. No member can fail to sustain the Prophet and remain a member. No member can 'disagree' with the church's 'revealed truth' about homosexuality and remain a member.

      If the LDS church DID represent itself as "A man-made and flawed" organization, then there would be no problem. Sadly, that's not the case. It holds itself to be the restored Church of Jesus Christ, the voice of God on the earth, and the arbiter of righteousness (through both policy and local leaders).

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    3. And told you that? Men or God?!? Why don't you instead seek God and do and believe what God tells you and stop dwelling so much on what men tell you.

      Again, as Luke states that Jesus taught, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

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  14. Also, Tobin and Matt, you both started your comments with 'sorry', but neither of you addressed Zilpha's major reasons for leaving the church. Are you really OK with the racism and misogyny in the church, or do you just ignore it?

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    1. Of course I don't endorse racism or misogyny. In or out of the Church, I absolutely will stand against it and say so. But, it is a completely false assertion to say that simply because you identify with being a Mormon that you endorse any of that. ANd when it is taught in the Church (no matter who by), it is false doctrine.

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    2. Tobin,

      If I understand your position, you're saying that

      A) The Mormon church contains as doctrine the concept that skin color is directly related to present or past sin
      B) You belong to the church
      C) You do not endorse the idea that skin color is related to righteousness

      I understand what you're saying on the one hand: there are many members of the church who did not endorse discrimination against black members before the 1978 declaration. On the other hand, I would argue that membership is an endorsement of doctrine. I'm sure that there are members of the KKK that do not consider themselves racist, but their membership in and of itself is an endorsement of the organization, which clearly *is* racist.

      Maybe I should be asking different questions. You claim that these are false doctrines:

      Do you talk about racist doctrine in Sunday School? When people mention the Lamanites, do you say "By the way, this idea that God made the Lamanites' skin turn dark due to their wickedness is false doctrine."?

      When people in church teach that women have Motherhood and men have the Priesthood do you stand up and say "That's a false equivalence, men have Fatherhood AND the Priesthood."?

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    3. You need to have a bit more comprehension of the Book of Mormon than that. As I've stated again and again, many of the "issues" people have with the LDS Church, BofA, BofM, JS and so on are false misconceptions they have.

      The Nephites had racist attitudes against the Lamanites and parts of the Book of Mormon reflect that. In fact, Jacob scolds them about this attitude in Jacob 3:9 "Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers."

      This is reiterated later (and reinforced) as the Nephites become wicked the Lamanites become righteous. Samuel the Lamanite (as the Nephites refer to him demonstrating their racial prejudice) tells them of their wickedness and tells them to repent. For that, the Nephites try to murder the righteous Lamanite prophet in cold blood. You'll note his skin was still dark and God didn't change the Nephite skin color to 'purple' to mark them for their wickedness.

      Also, I take whatever opportunity I can to speak against racism in and out of the Church. One of my favorite prophets was Martin Luther King Jr. Now, that may surprise you, but a prophet is a speaker of the truth and I believe he was inspired and called of God to do what he did. That should be recognized in the Church and celebrated.

      As far as women and banning them from publicly using the priesthood, that again is just a false, evil, man-made policy instituted in the Church by men who were not listening to God. The priesthood of God is the authority to act in the name of God and God does not discriminate by skin color nor gender. In fact, women perform priesthood ordinances in the temple to this day. And Mormons such as myself, and my family, recognize the role women have in the priesthood and honor that in various ways. For example, we bless and name our children at home, where both women and men stand in the circle and all members are invited to participate whether they are members of the Church or not. It is a blessing to be together and celebrate the birth and share in the love and blessing from God at such a special occasion as a family. That is the spirit in which such things should be done.

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    4. Tobin,

      First of all, let's stop with the 'you need to understand the..." arguments. I've read the Book of Mormon over a dozen times myself, marked it up etc. etc. I could just as easily claim that YOU don't understand the Book of Mormon. Please stick to verifiable arguments.

      You seem to misunderstand the argument that the Book of Mormon has racist doctrine. It doesn't matter that Nephites were told not to scorn the dark-skinned Lamanites. The very statement that skins are made black due to unrighteousness is racist.

      Are you still a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in good standing? Does your bishop know that you let women participate in priesthood ordinances?

      I'm not asking to 'out' you or anything. I'm asking because my understanding is that if any church leader learned that your family performs infant blessings by the authority of the Priesthood with women and non-members in the circle you would be on the road to excommunication.

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    5. The Bishop is invited and attends. I think you have a very narrow view of what the Church is all about and haven't experienced true faith as it is really practiced.

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    6. Tobin,

      You're engaging in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, also known as special pleading. More to the point, the church that Zilpha has resigned from does not permit women to participate in priesthood ordinances outside of the washing and anointing ceremonies in the temple, which you readily admit.

      I can only conclude that you belong to either a sub-sect or to a group that publicly holds membership in the official LDS church but privately practices and believes different doctrine than that of the official LDS church.

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    7. Not really. You don't understand what you are talking about. 'no true scotsman' is not equivalent to me pointing out you are ignorant and lack knowledge/experience with the gospel and God (someone you do not even believe in). In fact, the opposite is true - you have stated multiple times that you do not feel I'm a true Mormon ('no true scotsman'), despite the fact I'm responding to you that Mormonism is true and that I fully believe in God.

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    8. Tobin,

      You would make your claim about anyone who did not agree with your conception of god or religious pratices, no matter what evidence they provided to support their position. You would maintain that they hadn't 'experienced _true_ faith'.

      The "no true scotsman" fallacy is an ad-hoc addition of some criteria to defend a failed assertion. My assertion that you do not practice orthodox LDS doctrine was confirmed *by you* when you insisted that the doctrine that the priesthood not be held by women as a false doctrine. I didn't make up some new criteria ad-hoc; it's all in the church handbook of instructions.

      You can call yourself Mormon all you like, that's fine, but you do not follow the doctrines and practices of the orthodox church that Zilpha resigned from. That's all I'm saying.

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  15. Zilpha,
    I've listened to every one of your podcasts and feel a kinship with you and John. The podcasts have been extremely helpful! Even though I (1) agree with every word in your resignation letter, (2) have not been to church in ~12 years and (3) do not plan on ever becoming active again, there is a small part of me that feels a sense of sadness because you resigned. Does that make any sense or am I crazy?

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    1. You're not crazy. I can totally relate. Intellectually coming to the conclusion that the church isn't true is dramatically different from officially resigning oneself from it emotionally and psychologically. I've not believed for 2+ years now but I still grapple emotionally with it at times. Especially now since I'm now considering formally resigning I've been experiencing a huge wave of grief, uncertainty and sadness. In fact, I'm on this board today, listening to archived Mormon Expression podcasts (I just discovered ME podcasts last week) to strengthen my belief that the church is NOT true, so I can reconcile these difficult emotions once and for all, and take the final action (resignation) from a place of resolute strength, conviction and peace.

      I could really use support in this...I live in AZ and just listened to Mormon Expressions podcast #204 that described the mass resignation event...that's how I found this blog. Thanks for organizing. If I believed there was a Heavenly Father making things happen for our good, than you Zilpha and John are my God-send! However since I don't believe in such a God, I'll rest with the Buddhist notion: "When the student is ready, the teacher appears".

      From the depth of my heart (that is breaking, but I know will recover), I thank Zilpha, John and contributers for being my teachers, truth tellers and mentors in all of this (fyi - tears are rolling down my cheeks right now - just like I was bearing a testimony in sacrament meeting - because I'm experiencing the pure feelings of overwhelming gratitude as I write this.

      Like everyone, we all have a story that's gut wrenching...Seriously, you all are helping me more than you could ever realize. THANK YOU.

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  16. I congratulate you and all others for stepping out "in faith", and leaving the LDS community.

    I would just ask you to "Not throw out the baby with the bath water" in a sense.

    The Christian Gospel still stands as a clarion call to all: Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the One and Only, Exclusive Son of God, through whom all things were made, without whom nothing has been made that has ever been made-- Believe that you are a "poiema" ( greek word for poem, masterful work of creation) found in Eph 2:10 -- Believe that Christ's death on a Cross paid once and for all for those who would accept and believe in Him. His blood offering gives you free access to God Almighty, his blood is a covering which presents you before God as LEGALLY JUSTIFIED from all Universal and Spiritual Crimes which before hand you were charged. For it is by Grace through Faith, and this is not of yourself, that you have been saved, not of any kind of works, lest any man or woman should boast...Effectual Belief in this Gospel will cause you to enter into a life of repentence (Changing of the heart and mind, and changing of life actions based upon this 'metanoia'.) You will discover that Christians do good works, out of a sense of gratitude and Love for the Saviour who died for them, and for the Glory of God Almighty. The promise is for you, and for your children, for all those whoa re far off who have been now called near. Continue researching, and reasoning with your mind, and hold onto the Bible -- Jesus says his words are Living, and alive. Textual Criticism is a passion of mine, and I too, once chased the tails of many dragons, but now I am secure in my relationship with God through his Son Jesus Christ, and I believe the 3rd person of the Godhead, who is equal to all, the Holy Spirit, abides within me to act as a Comforter, Counselor, to convict me of Sin, assure me of righteousness, and warn me that Judgement is indeed coming one day for all man.

    Be encouraged, I will pray for your group.

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  17. Zilpha, I applaude you for your decision. There was an enormous sense of relief when I sent my letter in. I have no interest on joining any major religion ever again, although I will never say never. I am soured, however, on fear-based religions. One does not need religion to be a good person, and one does not need religion to believe in God. Nice job.

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  18. And if I had found out about the rally before this morning, I would have been there in support.

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  19. Hi Tobin. You're arguing a tautology. It's a useful rhetorical device that scores points on an apologetics meter, but it's as easily rejected as any other unreasonable -and in this case circular- assertion (including its converse, which would have equally erroneous validity). Your worldview is reducible to solipsism, wherein all of creation exists for the purpose of You and God. It's absurd and dismissible.

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    1. You really should be specific if you are going to claim someone's argument is a tautology, unless you accept all of their premises. If that is true, then it is ridiculous to state it is absurd and dismissible. You just say, it is a tautology and the conclusion is unnecessary because you agree with all the premises.

      Now, let's see if we are dealing with a tautaology (as you claim)? The argument is this: If there is a God and God speaks with you, he'll tell you the Book of Mormon is true (Moroni's promise). Let's suppose the premise is wrong and there is no God. God isn't going to appear and tell you anything. Another possiblity is God appears and tells you the Book of Mormon isn't true. It would seem that we aren't dealing with a tautology. So, perhaps you don't know what you are talking about. What is more likely?

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    2. Tobin,

      What if there is a god and he doesn't speak to you? What if there isn't a god? Do I get to claim that the Book of Mormon isn't true because god didn't 'speak to me'? How does god 'speak'?

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    3. I already mentioned those possibilities. That is why I've often commented here, that one should only be a Mormon if they "know" God has told them to do so. Feelings, talking to yourself, and other conditions are not what Moroni is talking about it. God WILL manifest the truth to you. That requires a demonstration of certainty.

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    4. Tobin,

      Do you understand that you're dodging the question? I keep asking you to define the method that god uses to 'manifest the truth'. Also, you mentioned other possibilities, but not the ones that I posted. In all cases you neglected to explain how those possibilities don't undermine your argument.

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    5. Proxer, do you believe in God, believe in the scriptures, and believe what is said about the prophets seeing and speaking with God? If you do, then seek God, experience God, and do what God asks of you. It is that simple. Either the scriptures are true, there really is a God you can speak with, or they are not. You have to decide what you believe. It isn't a question whether or not Mormonism is true. That is unimportant. It is a question of what you really believe and whether you are willing to speak with God and make your own determinations about the truth.

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    6. Tobin,

      Your argument is circular:

      Believe in god and he will show himself to you.

      I keep asking why I should believe in god, and you keep insisting that I should. I believe what evidence and reason convince me to believe; nothing more, nothing less.

      Insisting that I believe in god (much less trust scripture) without providing any evidence to support your assertion is silly.

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    7. Tobin, If the set of premises you posited in your response were part or the whole of your argument, there would be no need to post here, even when your argument contains a premise whose validity cannot be determined. This is not the same argument you stated elsewhere above, in its many iterations, but that's fine too. We can stop at your first New Argument premise, which stated another way is, God either exists or God does not. Until we can determine the existence or non-existence of God, any additional premises are just part of a thought exercise, and not a very enlightening one at that.

      But because I think you understand but prefer not to acknowledge the tautology, let me explain. It works like this: you know God exists because you have experienced something you believe is both necessary and sufficient for a belief in God to exist. In other words, you believe God exists because you believe God exists (or, concomitantly, a belief in God is necessary to a belief in God (unless belief is a precondition for the existence of God, which I'm sure you're not claiming). It really is that simple.

      Tobin, I have little doubt your apologetics are popular, they are just utterly insufficient. Entertaining, yes to be certain, but insufficient nonetheless.

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    8. The existence of the Sun could be characterized as a tautology too. How you might ask? Suppose the participants in a debate about the existence of the Sun had both been born and lived in a dark cave their entire lives. However, one of them had ventured out of their cave and glimpsed an amazing sight of a fiery ball crossing the sky. He then returns to the cave to tells this amazing tale about the Sun. His fellow is in complete disbelief and says (repeating EXACTLY your same argument):

      We can stop at your first New Argument premise, which state another way is, the Sun either exists or the Sun does not. Until we can determine the existence or non-existence of the Sun, any additional premises are just part of a thought exercise, and a not very enlightening one at that.

      (and I could continue using your exact words) ...

      Now, you and I both no this is complete and utter non-sense. The fact the Sun exists has nothing to do with anything that was just stated. It simple exists whether you believe in it or not (or view it as a very enlightened idea).

      I have a similarly dim view of your position. Why might you ask? Consider the following:
      1) Our universe is ~14.6 billion years old.
      2) The universe contains 10^22 to 10^24 stars in the universe.
      3) If even a fraction of 1% of those stars have habitable words circling them, that would trillions of worlds.
      4) If even a fraction of 1% of those worlds had intelligent life evolve on them that would be bilions of world.
      5) If even one of those worlds with intelligent life developed billions of years ago, given our technological progress - how transcendent would such beings exist now in comparison to us?

      In every definition of the word, they would be Gods in comparison to us. But, of course, your view is more enlightened because you are oblivious of the universe you may really exist in.

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    9. I think you misunderstand my arguments, as there are two. One addresses your first reply, which was a change from your argument to a set of contingencies, and was not a tautology. The other explains why your original (and many subsequent) arguments on this post are a tautology (something you have not addressed). I apologize if that wasn't clear.

      Regarding the contingent argument, your analogy is false. The question as to whether the sun (or anything) exists is verifiable. The claimant can do this empirically, repeatedly. Any additional premises or hypotheses we claim about the nature of the sun are no longer part of a thought exercise but are open to rational inquiry and empirical verifiability. This is not the case with God, either as generally argued or specific to the claims you have made here. If something is claimed to exist that is sufficient but not in any way necessary, verifiability is essential. Put another way, you probably do not believe an angry unicorn lives on the dark side of the moon. No matter. I am here to tell you that it exists regardless of whether or not you believe it exists.

      As to your advanced aliens that might appear as gods to us, they would still be bound by the laws that govern the natural universe and would therefore be finite. They could not, for instance, exist outside of nature. They could exist as a state of energy we might measure as matter (like us) or only as some form of persistent, but still measurable, energy. It is likely they would have mass. We can verify and understand the existence of a thoroughly advanced alien race through empirical, rational inquiry.

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    10. Tobin,

      Your example actually prove's JunkPower's point: The cave dwellers would be unjustified in believing that there was a Sun unless they had some testable evidence.

      Also, I'm not sure what you are attempting to show with your math. It sounds like your conclusion is that there might be a civilization so far in advance of our own that they would 'be gods in comparison to us'.

      JunkPower made no claim and has no position, so it's not clear what you have a dim view of. In any case, the existence or non-existence of gods is as relevant to you and me as as the existence or non-existence of the Sun to people who can't ever experience it for themselves.

      What you're postulating is called an unfalsifiable god: a god whose existence cannot be determined in any verifiable way, including any verifiable influence on this world. Such a god, while possible, is, as JunkPower correctly concludes, a thought exercise with little value.

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    11. JunkPower,

      I don't think you are grasping what I'm saying.

      Mormons don't believe in a God that is not empirically verifiable, only unavailable (or inaccessible) for examination. I also made no claim of a magical, supernatural God what-so-ever. In fact, Mormons believe in a naturally arising God that is bound within a natural framework. Since such a God, a sufficiently advanced alien race, is highly plausible within our understanding of the universe, the Mormon proposition that this is the God that man perceives is more than sufficient. The supernatural attributes attached to God by traditional Christianity are not those attached by Mormons to God. In Mormon theology, God the Father arose on an alien world billions of years ago. God the Father inhabits another world now. God taught technical means, and gave devices (technology) to various groups. And God utilizes natural, but advanced means to accomplish his purposes. This falls solidly into the analogy and examples I gave above.

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    12. No, Tobin, I really do understand, and God remains sufficient but not necessary. If Mormons believe in a God that is empirically verifiable, that is not the same as a God being empirically verifiable. You can posit as many properties to God as you or the LDS Church would like, but so long as you or the Church assert God is unavailable for empirical verification, all claims you make are insufficient and ultimately tautological. That has been the argument all along.

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    13. That is where we disagree. From your limited perspective it only seems that God is sufficient, but not necessary. As I stated, this is like the fellow in the cave. He may hold that view, but in reality the Sun is not only necessary, but the fact it exists is an integral part of his existence whether he acknowledges it or not. His limited perception (due to living in a cave) being the source of his views, but they do not correspond with reality.

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  20. Proxer, I see. You do not believe in God nor the scriptures. Let me tell you that I know that God exists, that the scriptures are true, and that God loves you. My only hope for you is that you will believe that someday. I also hope, for your sake, that God reveals himself to you. When that happens, I'll be happy to help you find your way. Until then, I wish you the very best and may God bless you.

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    1. Tobin,

      This is the classic response of theists who have run out of excuses for not demonstrating their claims. Rather than asserting these facts and 'hoping that I will believe,' why don't you provide me with some evidence? Because you can't.

      What worries me is that you can't reason about god in a legitimate way. If you used the reasoning that you've demonstrated here to build a bridge, it would fail. If you used the same reasoning that we see here in your job, there's a good chance that you'd be fired.

      I want you to be better at critical thinking for your own sake, but I won't just sit back and hope that you magically get better at it: here's a podcast that is a great introduction to the value and basic practice of critical thinking: http://www.criticalthinkeracademy.com/criticalthinkerpodcast/

      I truly hope that you'll take the time to listen to it, or to explore other books and courses on critical thinking.

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    2. Proxer,

      I wish you well. But from my perspective, we literally have nothing to discuss at all about Mormonism. I know there is a God and that one day, hopefully soon - you will accept that too. Until that day, I would encourage you to be a good moral person, treat others kindly, and be open to God. I know that God does exist and loves you and wishes only the best for you, whether you accept him or not.

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    3. Tobin, I'm concerned for you and your family. It's impossible to be moral without the capacity to reason, and you have demonstrated a strident disregard for reason in these discussions. I do hope that you listen to the podcast that I reference so that you can learn the value, the necessity of critical thinking for a moral life.

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  21. Reading a lot of these comments made me sad. It makes my heart hurt to see how a lot of people view the Mormon church based solely on the people of the church. People are imperfect beings. You can't judge a church based on truth by the imperfect people that run it. That is why a testimony is so vital to your eternal salvation.
    I was inactive for 8 years of my life because I felt judged in the church. What led me back was me asking God for myself if the Book of Mormon was true and if the teachings of the church were true. Through my own revelation, God confirmed to me that the church was true, so whomever had hurt me or offended me didn't matter. The people who hurt me are not the church. The church is the perfect church that was restored to the earth by a true prophet of God. The church in itself is perfect and that's all that should matter. If you let people in the church turn you away from the truth then you have missed the entire point that God wants you to learn. He wants you to have faith in him that he gave you a church full of imperfect people, and wants you to have faith in him that the church is true.
    I for one believe that people are born gay, I don't think anyone is going to be sent to hell if they drink coffee or tea, and I think the most important thing that we should get out of being a Mormon is being christian. Meaning loving thy neighbor as thyself. That's all that matters in this world is that you love God, and love your neighbor and treat them how Christ would.
    I'm sorry to those of you who have been offended by someone who is Mormon, to the point where it made you leave the church. Please know that "the Church" is not the "members". The church is the organization designed by God to help us return to him again and become better, more christlike people.
    I wish you all the best whatever your position is today. I just hope you don't base your position on how someone else treated you.

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    1. Dear Nummy Little Blog
      I dont think Its the people in the church that anyone is judging. I think most that have left the church have really looked into the doctrine and found enough evidence to leave. Its a good excuse to side step the real issues,Talk about being offended and such, but the real issue is joseph Smith was a false prophet. If you truly want to know the facts about the church there are many many sites on line that discuss this.

      But most wont because they don't want to know the truth about the church. Its too frightening to hear that the church is not true and what you believed all your life is false. Its a hard pill to swallow but in the long run you owe it to yourself to ask those hard questions. I left the church because I discovered the church is not true and is false. Not because someone hurt my feelings. Open up your mind to what others are saying about the church, regardless if you feel uncomfortable or fearful. I say feel the fear but do it anyway.

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  22. Many truths but only one worth remembering: true Love.
    Thank you for sharing.

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  23. I've finally found time to reply and say Bravo. I wish I'd known about you sooner and are any of you that have left the church in the Utah County area,(Springville)? We would LOVE to meet some people that feel like us and talk, go to dinner, lunch, whatever you'd like. Email me if you'd like something like that. Thanks for being brave. We left the church 14 years ago and only had each other to talk to. We quickly found out who our true LDS friends really were. But even with the very best of them, sometimes it's hard. Like I said we would love to meet people whom we can connect with on this level. Sherri Boyles sboyles1978@gmail.com

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  24. Dear Nummy Little Blog
    I dont think Its the people in the church that anyone is judging. I think most that have left the church have really looked into the doctrine and found enough evidence to leave. Its a good excuse to side step the real issues,Talk about being offended and such, but the real issue is joseph Smith was a false prophet. If you truly want to know the facts about the church there are many many sites on line that discuss this.

    But most wont because they don't want to know the truth about the church. Its too frightening to hear that the church is not true and what you believed all your life is false. Its a hard pill to swallow but in the long run you owe it to yourself to ask those hard questions. I left the church because I discovered the church is not true and is false. Not because someone hurt my feelings. Open up your mind to what others are saying about the church, regardless if you feel uncomfortable or fearful. I say feel the fear but do it anyway.

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  25. I'm sorry you're leaving (or left) the Church. Reading over your reasons for leaving, I have wondered about some of them. I've been battling depression and self injury for several years and it has made being strong in the Church very difficult. It's very near impossible not to question it when you feel so wretched and the people around you tell you that you shouldn't be feelings wretched. Because of what I've been going through I've thought a lot about the truth of the church and whether I want to continue being a member. I came to the conclusion that, if I left the Church, I would kill myself, because it provides me with a last bit of hope. As I've studied the Gospel and the church for myself I have come across things similar to what you have mentioned and it's bugged me, because I don't know how to answer those questions, I can't explain them. When others bring up those questions I don't know how to rationalize them or even give a satisfying answer. I've concluded for myself that those things really don't matter. I hate to explain away things that cause alienation in the church like the subject of homosexuality and racism, but the only thing that really matters is knowing that God loves you and that you love him and trying to be the best person you can possibly be. I try to remember that while God is at the head of this church, what happens on this earth regarding the church is a result of men. Yes they are men that are inspired by God but that doesn't make them perfect. They still make mistakes and they slip up sometimes. To counter that God has promised that He will never allow a prophet to lead us astray. The things regarding the Book of Mormon that you mentioned interest me and I wonder what God would say about them, because he has the WHOLE picture, whereas we only have a small bit of it. Things don't add up sometimes because things are missing in our knowledge. We don't know everything and it will be awhile before we do know everything. For now we have to trust God. I read the Book of Mormon for its Spiritual qualities, not for its historical ones.
    I've been privy to several discussions on why women seem to hold less of a status in the church. I think it's more a problem in our view of what is important and less that women are not important. Being a woman myself, I have given it much thought. In an eternal sense being a mother is more important than any career a woman can have on this earth. You will not be a politician/journalist/attorney/what-have-you forever, but you can be a mother forever. The Church likes to focus on things that are of eternal importance, not just things that are important on this earth. Women can bear children. That is a sacred responsibility and should be cherished, but men can't bear children. They can't have that close connection with a child. God has given women the power to create life, but what did he give men? He gave them the priesthood. The power to act in God's name. Women have their responsibilities and men have theirs. Neither one is more important than the other. The Church teaches against unrighteous dominion, men should not rule over women, they are to be partners, that is what God wants.
    The first four bullets in your second point I've never heard before and am curious where you heard them from?
    Anyway, I don't think my message will change your mind, it's just a few things to think about. God says that we should love everyone no matter what they do or say and that we should continually help others come back to Him. You should be happy and continually strive for what makes you truly and deeply happy. The only things that really matter in this life, are building a righteous character and the positive relationships you build with other people, especially family and friends.
    And remember always that God loves you.

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