tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post2671748740422655293..comments2017-01-30T09:51:59.188-08:00Comments on Resign Mormon: Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733898777890932586noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-91750053958694274512013-04-06T07:00:00.947-07:002013-04-06T07:00:00.947-07:00hi zepha
as one of the LDS member, first i am happ...hi zepha<br />as one of the LDS member, first i am happy that you were able to fully expressed and exercised your AGENCY making you as real as independent agent.. see, LDS leaders are not forcing us to do and to believe what they teach as what our Heavenly Father wants. despite what you have done, i m still hoping your very best life to the fullest and may find the real happiness you are looking for. being a member of LDS church is a choice and a matter of choice.. all we have to do is to pray. i believe God answers our prayers weather a member or non-member of LDS church. what testimony i am holding into this church is my assurance that God answered my inquiry about the BoM, and continue to pray about it.. many times i felt LDS leaders failed me, but despite those things i remain to the church, because chosing God's way is all but a matter of choice. still i hope what's best for you. as one member of LDS church, i apologize for any inconvenience you have had in this church. Zepha, i know God loves you.kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962572446894797702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-49827540893380387112012-09-20T10:30:36.755-07:002012-09-20T10:30:36.755-07:00You're not crazy. I can totally relate. Inte...You're not crazy. I can totally relate. Intellectually coming to the conclusion that the church isn't true is dramatically different from officially resigning oneself from it emotionally and psychologically. I've not believed for 2+ years now but I still grapple emotionally with it at times. Especially now since I'm now considering formally resigning I've been experiencing a huge wave of grief, uncertainty and sadness. In fact, I'm on this board today, listening to archived Mormon Expression podcasts (I just discovered ME podcasts last week) to strengthen my belief that the church is NOT true, so I can reconcile these difficult emotions once and for all, and take the final action (resignation) from a place of resolute strength, conviction and peace. <br /><br />I could really use support in this...I live in AZ and just listened to Mormon Expressions podcast #204 that described the mass resignation event...that's how I found this blog. Thanks for organizing. If I believed there was a Heavenly Father making things happen for our good, than you Zilpha and John are my God-send! However since I don't believe in such a God, I'll rest with the Buddhist notion: "When the student is ready, the teacher appears". <br /><br />From the depth of my heart (that is breaking, but I know will recover), I thank Zilpha, John and contributers for being my teachers, truth tellers and mentors in all of this (fyi - tears are rolling down my cheeks right now - just like I was bearing a testimony in sacrament meeting - because I'm experiencing the pure feelings of overwhelming gratitude as I write this.<br /><br />Like everyone, we all have a story that's gut wrenching...Seriously, you all are helping me more than you could ever realize. THANK YOU. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14838998897643734508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-27123245736400055442012-08-15T13:19:35.618-07:002012-08-15T13:19:35.618-07:00I'm sorry you're leaving (or left) the Chu...I'm sorry you're leaving (or left) the Church. Reading over your reasons for leaving, I have wondered about some of them. I've been battling depression and self injury for several years and it has made being strong in the Church very difficult. It's very near impossible not to question it when you feel so wretched and the people around you tell you that you shouldn't be feelings wretched. Because of what I've been going through I've thought a lot about the truth of the church and whether I want to continue being a member. I came to the conclusion that, if I left the Church, I would kill myself, because it provides me with a last bit of hope. As I've studied the Gospel and the church for myself I have come across things similar to what you have mentioned and it's bugged me, because I don't know how to answer those questions, I can't explain them. When others bring up those questions I don't know how to rationalize them or even give a satisfying answer. I've concluded for myself that those things really don't matter. I hate to explain away things that cause alienation in the church like the subject of homosexuality and racism, but the only thing that really matters is knowing that God loves you and that you love him and trying to be the best person you can possibly be. I try to remember that while God is at the head of this church, what happens on this earth regarding the church is a result of men. Yes they are men that are inspired by God but that doesn't make them perfect. They still make mistakes and they slip up sometimes. To counter that God has promised that He will never allow a prophet to lead us astray. The things regarding the Book of Mormon that you mentioned interest me and I wonder what God would say about them, because he has the WHOLE picture, whereas we only have a small bit of it. Things don't add up sometimes because things are missing in our knowledge. We don't know everything and it will be awhile before we do know everything. For now we have to trust God. I read the Book of Mormon for its Spiritual qualities, not for its historical ones. <br />I've been privy to several discussions on why women seem to hold less of a status in the church. I think it's more a problem in our view of what is important and less that women are not important. Being a woman myself, I have given it much thought. In an eternal sense being a mother is more important than any career a woman can have on this earth. You will not be a politician/journalist/attorney/what-have-you forever, but you can be a mother forever. The Church likes to focus on things that are of eternal importance, not just things that are important on this earth. Women can bear children. That is a sacred responsibility and should be cherished, but men can't bear children. They can't have that close connection with a child. God has given women the power to create life, but what did he give men? He gave them the priesthood. The power to act in God's name. Women have their responsibilities and men have theirs. Neither one is more important than the other. The Church teaches against unrighteous dominion, men should not rule over women, they are to be partners, that is what God wants. <br />The first four bullets in your second point I've never heard before and am curious where you heard them from?<br />Anyway, I don't think my message will change your mind, it's just a few things to think about. God says that we should love everyone no matter what they do or say and that we should continually help others come back to Him. You should be happy and continually strive for what makes you truly and deeply happy. The only things that really matter in this life, are building a righteous character and the positive relationships you build with other people, especially family and friends. <br />And remember always that God loves you.Owlfuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07699730748702804019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-72614818120410425682012-07-12T19:34:06.135-07:002012-07-12T19:34:06.135-07:00ferdinand, maybe if you learned how to properly sp...ferdinand, maybe if you learned how to properly speak ENGLISH then you would know how to write a proper response. Also you would then know if I was attacking someone. If you think that was attacking someone then you must be DUMBER than I thought!!!! I have the right to my opinion and so does he. Se OOPHA!!likboy69https://www.blogger.com/profile/07957285135981301139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-71250855135450684082012-07-12T19:28:47.593-07:002012-07-12T19:28:47.593-07:00YEAH REALLY ferdinand!! I'm sorry are you and...YEAH REALLY ferdinand!! I'm sorry are you and your P.A.L. tobin gonna beat me up????? I'm soooooooo SCARED!!!!likboy69https://www.blogger.com/profile/07957285135981301139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-88413962995398549212012-07-12T19:25:29.925-07:002012-07-12T19:25:29.925-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.likboy69https://www.blogger.com/profile/07957285135981301139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-20480856980068300182012-07-09T15:26:27.591-07:002012-07-09T15:26:27.591-07:00Really likboy69? You tell somebody note the hate b...Really likboy69? You tell somebody note the hate by attacking them? Sounds like you're acting the way you accuse others of acting...hypocritical, wouldn't you say?Fernandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11593257096018313556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-82512123217484429622012-07-08T22:42:50.488-07:002012-07-08T22:42:50.488-07:00Dear Nummy Little Blog
I dont think Its the people...Dear Nummy Little Blog<br />I dont think Its the people in the church that anyone is judging. I think most that have left the church have really looked into the doctrine and found enough evidence to leave. Its a good excuse to side step the real issues,Talk about being offended and such, but the real issue is joseph Smith was a false prophet. If you truly want to know the facts about the church there are many many sites on line that discuss this. <br /><br />But most wont because they don't want to know the truth about the church. Its too frightening to hear that the church is not true and what you believed all your life is false. Its a hard pill to swallow but in the long run you owe it to yourself to ask those hard questions. I left the church because I discovered the church is not true and is false. Not because someone hurt my feelings. Open up your mind to what others are saying about the church, regardless if you feel uncomfortable or fearful. I say feel the fear but do it anyway.SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14725231064421758664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-11612196900082771002012-07-08T22:40:51.026-07:002012-07-08T22:40:51.026-07:00Dear Nummy Little Blog
I dont think Its the peopl...Dear Nummy Little Blog<br />I dont think Its the people in the church that anyone is judging. I think most that have left the church have really looked into the doctrine and found enough evidence to leave. Its a good excuse to side step the real issues,Talk about being offended and such, but the real issue is joseph Smith was a false prophet. If you truly want to know the facts about the church there are many many sites on line that discuss this. <br /><br />But most wont because they don't want to know the truth about the church. Its too frightening to hear that the church is not true and what you believed all your life is false. Its a hard pill to swallow but in the long run you owe it to yourself to ask those hard questions. I left the church because I discovered the church is not true and is false. Not because someone hurt my feelings. Open up your mind to what others are saying about the church, regardless if you feel uncomfortable or fearful. I say feel the fear but do it anyway.SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14725231064421758664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-56593870925430342082012-07-07T23:01:24.479-07:002012-07-07T23:01:24.479-07:00I've finally found time to reply and say Bravo...I've finally found time to reply and say Bravo. I wish I'd known about you sooner and are any of you that have left the church in the Utah County area,(Springville)? We would LOVE to meet some people that feel like us and talk, go to dinner, lunch, whatever you'd like. Email me if you'd like something like that. Thanks for being brave. We left the church 14 years ago and only had each other to talk to. We quickly found out who our true LDS friends really were. But even with the very best of them, sometimes it's hard. Like I said we would love to meet people whom we can connect with on this level. Sherri Boyles sboyles1978@gmail.comAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16243811171998952135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-15315041404700043882012-07-03T05:55:19.973-07:002012-07-03T05:55:19.973-07:00Tobin,
You have not answered me and you do not wi...Tobin,<br /><br />You have not answered me and you do not wish me well, or you would answer my honest inquiry into what you believe. I've asked you the same straightforward questions several times and you have declined to answer each time. If you disagree, I will ask it again and you can repeat your answer:<br /><br />1) What test do we use to confirm the existence of god?<br />2) What measurable, repeatable result should we expect?<br />3) What test do we use to disprove the existence of god?<br />4) What measurable, repeatable result should we expect?<br /><br />This level of evidence is the standard for all beliefs that I hold. It is the standard for any rational belief. If you cannot provide this evidence, then your belief is irrational, and your assertion is correct, you don't have anything to discuss.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-21137863431526946652012-07-03T05:53:59.497-07:002012-07-03T05:53:59.497-07:00Many truths but only one worth remembering: true L...Many truths but only one worth remembering: true Love.<br />Thank you for sharing.fireflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14275223087731824160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-49985695871642610272012-07-03T05:40:17.909-07:002012-07-03T05:40:17.909-07:00Reading a lot of these comments made me sad. It ma...Reading a lot of these comments made me sad. It makes my heart hurt to see how a lot of people view the Mormon church based solely on the people of the church. People are imperfect beings. You can't judge a church based on truth by the imperfect people that run it. That is why a testimony is so vital to your eternal salvation.<br />I was inactive for 8 years of my life because I felt judged in the church. What led me back was me asking God for myself if the Book of Mormon was true and if the teachings of the church were true. Through my own revelation, God confirmed to me that the church was true, so whomever had hurt me or offended me didn't matter. The people who hurt me are not the church. The church is the perfect church that was restored to the earth by a true prophet of God. The church in itself is perfect and that's all that should matter. If you let people in the church turn you away from the truth then you have missed the entire point that God wants you to learn. He wants you to have faith in him that he gave you a church full of imperfect people, and wants you to have faith in him that the church is true.<br />I for one believe that people are born gay, I don't think anyone is going to be sent to hell if they drink coffee or tea, and I think the most important thing that we should get out of being a Mormon is being christian. Meaning loving thy neighbor as thyself. That's all that matters in this world is that you love God, and love your neighbor and treat them how Christ would.<br />I'm sorry to those of you who have been offended by someone who is Mormon, to the point where it made you leave the church. Please know that "the Church" is not the "members". The church is the organization designed by God to help us return to him again and become better, more christlike people.<br />I wish you all the best whatever your position is today. I just hope you don't base your position on how someone else treated you.Jilly Strasburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14879213289270911224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-53065574922153952392012-07-03T05:14:08.390-07:002012-07-03T05:14:08.390-07:00Tobin,
You would make your claim about anyone who...Tobin,<br /><br />You would make your claim about anyone who did not agree with your conception of god or religious pratices, no matter what evidence they provided to support their position. You would maintain that they hadn't 'experienced _true_ faith'.<br /><br />The "no true scotsman" fallacy is an ad-hoc addition of some criteria to defend a failed assertion. My assertion that you do not practice orthodox LDS doctrine was confirmed *by you* when you insisted that the doctrine that the priesthood not be held by women as a false doctrine. I didn't make up some new criteria ad-hoc; it's all in the church handbook of instructions.<br /><br />You can call yourself Mormon all you like, that's fine, but you do not follow the doctrines and practices of the orthodox church that Zilpha resigned from. That's all I'm saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-79123716212981142942012-07-03T05:08:37.991-07:002012-07-03T05:08:37.991-07:00Tobin, I'm concerned for you and your family. ...Tobin, I'm concerned for you and your family. It's impossible to be moral without the capacity to reason, and you have demonstrated a strident disregard for reason in these discussions. I do hope that you listen to the podcast that I reference so that you can learn the value, the necessity of critical thinking for a moral life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-90247023860720121642012-07-03T01:04:36.026-07:002012-07-03T01:04:36.026-07:00I have answered you Proxer several times. Until y...I have answered you Proxer several times. Until you have a witness of God (something I have explained), are willing to folow him and do as he asks, we have nothing more to discuss about Mormonism. Again, I wish you well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-56442162378229749922012-07-03T01:00:04.513-07:002012-07-03T01:00:04.513-07:00Not really. You don't understand what you are...Not really. You don't understand what you are talking about. 'no true scotsman' is not equivalent to me pointing out you are ignorant and lack knowledge/experience with the gospel and God (someone you do not even believe in). In fact, the opposite is true - you have stated multiple times that you do not feel I'm a true Mormon ('no true scotsman'), despite the fact I'm responding to you that Mormonism is true and that I fully believe in God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-5315544203933786362012-07-03T00:44:19.437-07:002012-07-03T00:44:19.437-07:00Proxer,
I wish you well. But from my perspective...Proxer,<br /><br />I wish you well. But from my perspective, we literally have nothing to discuss at all about Mormonism. I know there is a God and that one day, hopefully soon - you will accept that too. Until that day, I would encourage you to be a good moral person, treat others kindly, and be open to God. I know that God does exist and loves you and wishes only the best for you, whether you accept him or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-23915896888760750962012-07-03T00:35:26.006-07:002012-07-03T00:35:26.006-07:00That is where we disagree. From your limited pers...That is where we disagree. From your limited perspective it only seems that God is sufficient, but not necessary. As I stated, this is like the fellow in the cave. He may hold that view, but in reality the Sun is not only necessary, but the fact it exists is an integral part of his existence whether he acknowledges it or not. His limited perception (due to living in a cave) being the source of his views, but they do not correspond with reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-31489692250086738802012-07-02T19:31:59.880-07:002012-07-02T19:31:59.880-07:00No, Tobin, I really do understand, and God remains...No, Tobin, I really do understand, and God remains sufficient but not necessary. If Mormons believe in a God that is empirically verifiable, that is not the same as a God being empirically verifiable. You can posit as many properties to God as you or the LDS Church would like, but so long as you or the Church assert God is unavailable for empirical verification, all claims you make are insufficient and ultimately tautological. That has been the argument all along.JunkPowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03881922665328317759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-89670731850852421632012-07-02T18:48:01.065-07:002012-07-02T18:48:01.065-07:00Tobin,
You're engaging in the 'no true sc...Tobin,<br /><br />You're engaging in the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, also known as special pleading. More to the point, the church that Zilpha has resigned from does not permit women to participate in priesthood ordinances outside of the washing and anointing ceremonies in the temple, which you readily admit.<br /><br />I can only conclude that you belong to either a sub-sect or to a group that publicly holds membership in the official LDS church but privately practices and believes different doctrine than that of the official LDS church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-62742727973231745252012-07-02T18:40:22.831-07:002012-07-02T18:40:22.831-07:00Tobin, you did not answer me, and your claim that ...Tobin, you did not answer me, and your claim that you did so is dishonest.<br /><br />Truth is discovered by evidence and reasoning, like the Rutherford Experiment, used to discover the Proton: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/rutherford/<br /><br />I have asked several times in several ways that you explain how your god can be demonstrated, and you have dodged the question each time. Where is the TobinDrake experiment? What specific, measurable, repeatable results should we expect?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-41966222152552491172012-07-02T18:31:12.335-07:002012-07-02T18:31:12.335-07:00Tobin,
This is the classic response of theists wh...Tobin,<br /><br />This is the classic response of theists who have run out of excuses for not demonstrating their claims. Rather than asserting these facts and 'hoping that I will believe,' why don't you provide me with some evidence? Because you can't.<br /><br />What worries me is that you can't reason about god in a legitimate way. If you used the reasoning that you've demonstrated here to build a bridge, it would fail. If you used the same reasoning that we see here in your job, there's a good chance that you'd be fired. <br /><br />I want you to be better at critical thinking for your own sake, but I won't just sit back and hope that you magically get better at it: here's a podcast that is a great introduction to the value and basic practice of critical thinking: http://www.criticalthinkeracademy.com/criticalthinkerpodcast/<br /><br />I truly hope that you'll take the time to listen to it, or to explore other books and courses on critical thinking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-37504882170199311022012-07-02T18:29:46.722-07:002012-07-02T18:29:46.722-07:00JunkPower,
I don't think you are grasping wh...JunkPower, <br /><br />I don't think you are grasping what I'm saying.<br /><br />Mormons don't believe in a God that is not empirically verifiable, only unavailable (or inaccessible) for examination. I also made no claim of a magical, supernatural God what-so-ever. In fact, Mormons believe in a naturally arising God that is bound within a natural framework. Since such a God, a sufficiently advanced alien race, is highly plausible within our understanding of the universe, the Mormon proposition that this is the God that man perceives is more than sufficient. The supernatural attributes attached to God by traditional Christianity are not those attached by Mormons to God. In Mormon theology, God the Father arose on an alien world billions of years ago. God the Father inhabits another world now. God taught technical means, and gave devices (technology) to various groups. And God utilizes natural, but advanced means to accomplish his purposes. This falls solidly into the analogy and examples I gave above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320577914359895585.post-84104666720972833522012-07-02T18:01:47.114-07:002012-07-02T18:01:47.114-07:00Tobin,
Your example actually prove's JunkPowe...Tobin,<br /><br />Your example actually prove's JunkPower's point: The cave dwellers would be unjustified in believing that there was a Sun unless they had some testable evidence.<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure what you are attempting to show with your math. It sounds like your conclusion is that there might be a civilization so far in advance of our own that they would 'be gods in comparison to us'.<br /><br />JunkPower made no claim and has no position, so it's not clear what you have a dim view of. In any case, the existence or non-existence of gods is as relevant to you and me as as the existence or non-existence of the Sun to people who can't ever experience it for themselves.<br /><br />What you're postulating is called an unfalsifiable god: a god whose existence cannot be determined in any verifiable way, including any verifiable influence on this world. Such a god, while possible, is, as JunkPower correctly concludes, a thought exercise with little value.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com